Thinking about it, there are several species that cannot be positively identified by visual means only, like the Cassia Crossbill.  Without that vocalization, I would not have been able to determine the bird I was seeing was actually a Cassia and not just some subspecies of Red Crossbill.  Another bird that I identified vocally was the Whiskered Screech-Owl.  I was able to make out there silhouettes, but it was the vocalization that positively identified the bird.  I have never been a fan of using recordings to entice birds out of hiding, so vocalization may be the only way to I.D. certain birds.  Secretive birds should not be disturbed just to get a visual I.D.  So I feel comfortable counting the Mexican Whip-poor-will that I heard in Medera Canyon.  Though I did not see it, it was probably less than 100 feet away up the canyon and clearly making its unmistakable call.  Thanks for all the comments.
Good birding,Brad

On Saturday, September 1, 2018 9:45 PM, “‘Tom McCabe’ tmccabe9@cableone..net [ible]” wrote:

  Brad:I agree with everything Mark said. I used to “pooh-pooh” the idea of counting birds by sound, but that was before I began to distinguish more and more birds by sound. If I hear a bird, and I KNOW what bird it is, why not count it? But I think each birder has to make his or her own choice. One way I use to distinguish is that I don’t go out to “watch” birds, I go out to “identify” them. So each day I try to “identify” at least 30 birds (my Recommended Daily Allowance), whether I “see” them or not.BTW, if you want to be totally fooled about the sound of a bird, you should hear Mark imitate a Pygmy Owl. My wife and I were being guided by him near San Blas, and he imitated the owl, and we had 2 different species of Pygmy Owl (Northern and Ferruginous if I remember correctly) come to see who was in their territory. Way cool.Tom McCabe, Boise  From: ible@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ible@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark Stackhouse westwings@sisna.com [ible]
Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2018 3:15 PM
To: Brad Hardenburger
Cc: Idaho Birders Linked Electronically
Subject: Re: [IBLE] Cassia Crossbill    Hola Brad,  Your question about what “counts” as a life bird is a good one. As a birding guide, I face that question with each new client, and the answers are all over the map. Some count only seen birds, some count only really, really well-seen birds, others count heard birds if they can be clearly identified, yet others only count heard birds from notoriously difficult to see groups, such as owls and rails. Some count anything they even thought they heard. I even overheard in a group of college students I was guiding (not really birders), “Did you see it well enough for me to put on my list?”  In the end, it’s your list, and you make the rules. It’s whatever you feel best about doing – what makes your list seem most “honest” to YOU.  The only reason for standardized rules is if you wish to compare your list to others. According the the biggest arbiter of such list-comparisons, the ABA, heard-only birds count if they were clearly identified by the observer. One of the rationales for accepting heard birds was to reduce disturbance by birders trying to get a look at shy, retiring species.  I’ve had many clients who haven’t accepted that change, and only count seen birds.  But, as you point out, if the sine qua non of listing is getting a positive identification before adding a species to a list, then some species should not be counted with a visual observation alone. Any species that can only be reliably identified by sound should not be added to a list with a visual observation alone.  For my own part, I simply make a note if I only heard the species – it’s more valuable to keep all the data. For year lists, big days, etc., I count heard-only birds if the listing rules allow it. For my own life list, it’s all there, so that I know which I’ve seen, and which are only heard, so I can count it either way.  But let me encourage you to become a more audio-centric birder. You’ll find more birds. You can only see in one direction, while sounds come from 360°.  Good birding!  Mark Mark Stackhousemark@westwings.comfrom Mexico:01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit)001-801-518-5618 (cellular – U.S. and Mexico)from  U.S.011-52-323-285-1243 or1-801-518-5618  

 
On Sep 1, 2018, at 12:55 AM, Brad Hardenburger bradhardenburger@yahoo.com [ible] wrote:    Thanks to all that gave me suggestions where to find the Crossbill.  Being Labor Day weekend, the campgrounds were filling up and I decided to look where fewer people were.  I went up FR 570 past a Pine stand and parked.  As soon as I got out of the truck I heard Crossbills.  A female and male flew to a top of a Pine tree and I glassed them for about a minute.  The call was definitely Cassia and I visually confirmed it.  Within 3 to 4 minutes they had moved on and all was quiet, I guess right place at the right time.For all those hard-core birders out there, I have a question for you.  I consider myself a visual birder and have only counted birds that I have been able to verify visually.  On a few occasions I have spotted birds others have misse d because of my ability to observe abnormalities’ (I saw the Mexican Spotted Owl in Scheelite Canyon when two groups had missed it, on a log in the ravine next to the trail).  I have struggled with whether or not I should count birds heard but not seen..  I heard a Mexican Whip-poor-will in Medera Canyon, but did not see it nor was I going to go up a trail in the dark by myself.  My question for you is, should a bird be counted on a life list if it is heard but not seen?  And if so, to what limits should it count.  If you hear an Owl a mile away do you count it, or should it be within a distance that you could visually I.D. it?  Certain birds may be extremely hard to visually I.D., but easier with vocals.    Thanks again,Brad Hardenburger   
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Brad:

I agree with everything Mark said. I used to “pooh-pooh” the idea of counting birds by sound, but that was before I began to distinguish more and more birds by sound. If I hear a bird, and I KNOW what bird it is, why not count it? But I think each birder has to make his or her own choice.

One way I use to distinguish is that I don’t go out to “watch” birds, I go out to “identify” them. So each day I try to “identify” at least 30 birds (my Recommended Daily Allowance), whether I “see” them or not.

BTW, if you want to be totally fooled about the sound of a bird, you should hear Mark imitate a Pygmy Owl. My wife and I were being guided by him near San Blas, and he imitated the owl, and we had 2 different species of Pygmy Owl (Northern and Ferruginous if I remember correctly) come to see who was in their territory. Way cool.

Tom McCabe, Boise

From: ible@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ible@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark Stackhouse westwings@sisna.com [ible]
Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2018 3:15 PM
To: Brad Hardenburger
Cc: Idaho Birders Linked Electronically
Subject: Re: [IBLE] Cassia Crossbill

Hola Brad,

Your question about what “counts” as a life bird is a good one. As a birding guide, I face that question with each new client, and the answers are all over the map. Some count only seen birds, some count only really, really well-seen birds, others count heard birds if they can be clearly identified, yet others only count heard birds from notoriously difficult to see groups, such as owls and rails. Some count anything they even thought they heard. I even overheard in a group of college students I was guiding (not really birders), “Did you see it well enough for me to put on my list?”

In the end, it’s your list, and you make the rules. It’s whatever you feel best about doing – what makes your list seem most “honest” to YOU.

The only reason for standardized rules is if you wish to compare your list to others. According the the biggest arbiter of such list-comparisons, the ABA, heard-only birds count if they were clearly identified by the observer.. One of the rationales for accepting heard birds was to reduce disturbance by birders trying to get a look at shy, retiring species.

I’ve had many clients who haven’t accepted that change, and only count seen birds.

But, as you point out, if the sine qua non of listing is getting a positive identification before adding a species to a list, then some species should not be counted with a visual observation alone. Any species that can only be reliably identified by sound should not be added to a list with a visual observation alone.

For my own part, I simply make a note if I only heard the species – it’s more valuable to keep all the data. For year lists, big days, etc., I count heard-only birds if the listing rules allow it. For my own life list, it’s all there, so that I know which I’ve seen, and which are only heard, so I can count it either way.

But let me encourage you to become a more audio-centric birder. You’ll find more birds. You can only see in one direction, while sounds come from 360°.

Good birding!

Mark

Mark Stackhouse

mark@westwings.com

from Mexico:

01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit)

001-801-518-5618 (cellular – U.S. and Mexico)

from U.S.

011-52-323-285-1243 or

1-801-518-5618

On Sep 1, 2018, at 12:55 AM, Brad Hardenburger bradhardenburger@yahoo.com [ible] > wrote:

Thanks to all that gave me suggestions where to find the Crossbill. Being Labor Day weekend, the campgrounds were filling up and I decided to look where fewer people were. I went up FR 570 past a Pine stand and parked. As soon as I got out of the truck I heard Crossbills. A female and male flew to a top of a Pine tree and I glassed them for about a minute. The call was definitely Cassia and I visually confirmed it. Within 3 to 4 minutes they had moved on and all was quiet, I guess right place at the right time.

For all those hard-core birders out there, I have a question for you. I consider myself a visual birder and have only counted birds that I have been able to verify visually. On a few occasions I have spotted birds others have misse d because of my ability to observe abnormalities’ (I saw the Mexican Spotted Owl in Scheelite Canyon when two groups had missed it, on a log in the ravine next to the trail). I have struggled with whether or not I should count birds heard but not seen. I heard a Mexican Whip-poor-will in Medera Canyon, but did not see it nor was I going to go up a trail in the dark by myself. My question for you is, should a bird be counted on a life list if it is heard but not seen? And if so, to what limits should it count. If you hear an Owl a mile away do you count it, or should it be within a distance that you could visually I.D. it? Certain birds may be extremely hard to visually I.D., but easier with vocals.

Thanks again,

Brad Hardenburger

Mark,Most people think of birding as primarily a visual activity, but sound is important too. I lead tours for visually impaired birders; we only count heard birds. It’s the only way they can enjoy birding. It gets a group of people out to enjoy nature in a way they never thought they could.

Steve Bouffard  Boise.ID

Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S8, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
——– Original message ——–From: “Mark Stackhouse westwings@sisna.com [ible]” Date: 9/1/18 3:14 PM (GMT-07:00) To: Brad Hardenburger Cc: Idaho Birders Linked Electronically Subject: Re: [IBLE] Cassia Crossbill

 

Hola Brad,
Your question about what “counts” as a life bird is a good one. As a birding guide, I face that question with each new client, and the answers are all over the map. Some count only seen birds, some count only really, really well-seen birds, others count heard birds if they can be clearly identified, yet others only count heard birds from notoriously difficult to see groups, such as owls and rails. Some count anything they even thought they heard. I even overheard in a group of college students I was guiding (not really birders), “Did you see it well enough for me to put on my list?”
In the end, it’s your list, and you make the rules. It’s whatever you feel best about doing – what makes your list seem most “honest” to YOU.
The only reason for standardized rules is if you wish to compare your list to others. According the the biggest arbiter of such list-comparisons, the ABA, heard-only birds count if they were clearly identified by the observer. One of the rationales for accepting heard birds was to reduce disturbance by birders trying to get a look at shy, retiring species.
I’ve had many clients who haven’t accepted that change, and only count seen birds.
But, as you point out, if the sine qua non of listing is getting a positive identification before adding a species to a list, then some species should not be counted with a visual observation alone. Any species that can only be reliably identified by sound should not be added to a list with a visual observation alone.
For my own part, I simply make a note if I only heard the species – it’s more valuable to keep all the data. For year lists, big days, etc., I count heard-only birds if the listing rules allow it. For my own life list, it’s all there, so that I know which I’ve seen, and which are only heard, so I can count it either way.
But let me encourage you to become a more audio-centric birder. You’ll find more birds. You can only see in one direction, while sounds come from 360°.
Good birding!
Mark 

Mark Stackhousemark@westwings.comfrom Mexico:01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit)001-801-518-5618 (cellular – U.S. and Mexico)from  U.S.011-52-323-285-1243 or1-801-518-5618

On Sep 1, 2018, at 12:55 AM, Brad Hardenburger bradhardenburger@yahoo.com [ible] wrote:

Thanks to all that gave me suggestions where to find the Crossbill.  Being Labor Day weekend, the campgrounds were filling up and I decided to look where fewer people were.  I went up FR 570 past a Pine stand and parked.  As soon as I got out of the truck I heard Crossbills.  A female and male flew to a top of a Pine tree and I glassed them for about a minute.  The call was definitely Cassia and I visually confirmed it.  Within 3 to 4 minutes they had moved on and all was quiet, I guess right place at the right time.For all those hard-core birders out there, I have a question for you.  I consider myself a visual birder and have only counted birds that I have been able to verify visually.  On a few occasions I have spotted birds others have misse d because of my ability to observe abnormalities’ (I saw the Mexican Spotted Owl in Scheelite Canyon when two groups had missed it, on a log in the ravine next to the trail).  I have struggled with whether or not I should count birds heard but not seen.  I heard a Mexican Whip-poor-will in Medera Canyon, but did not see it nor was I going to go up a trail in the dark by myself.  My question for you is, should a bird be counted on a life list if it is heard but not seen?  And if so, to what limits should it count.  If you hear an Owl a mile away do you count it, or should it be within a distance that you could visually I.D. it?  Certain birds may be extremely hard to visually I.D., but easier with vocals.

Thanks again,Brad Hardenburger 

Hola Brad,

Your question about what “counts” as a life bird is a good one. As a birding guide, I face that question with each new client, and the answers are all over the map. Some count only seen birds, some count only really, really well-seen birds, others count heard birds if they can be clearly identified, yet others only count heard birds from notoriously difficult to see groups, such as owls and rails. Some count anything they even thought they heard. I even overheard in a group of college students I was guiding (not really birders), “Did you see it well enough for me to put on my list?”

In the end, it’s your list, and you make the rules. It’s whatever you feel best about doing – what makes your list seem most “honest” to YOU.

The only reason for standardized rules is if you wish to compare your list to others. According the the biggest arbiter of such list-comparisons, the ABA, heard-only birds count if they were clearly identified by the observer.. One of the rationales for accepting heard birds was to reduce disturbance by birders trying to get a look at shy, retiring species.

I’ve had many clients who haven’t accepted that change, and only count seen birds.

But, as you point out, if the sine qua non of listing is getting a positive identification before adding a species to a list, then some species should not be counted with a visual observation alone. Any species that can only be reliably identified by sound should not be added to a list with a visual observation alone.

For my own part, I simply make a note if I only heard the species – it’s more valuable to keep all the data. For year lists, big days, etc., I count heard-only birds if the listing rules allow it. For my own life list, it’s all there, so that I know which I’ve seen, and which are only heard, so I can count it either way.

But let me encourage you to become a more audio-centric birder. You’ll find more birds. You can only see in one direction, while sounds come from 360°.

Good birding!

Mark

Mark Stackhouse
mark@westwings.com
from Mexico:
01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit)
001-801-518-5618 (cellular – U.S. and Mexico)
from U.S.
011-52-323-285-1243 or
1-801-518-5618

> On Sep 1, 2018, at 12:55 AM, Brad Hardenburger bradhardenburger@yahoo.com [ible] wrote:
>
>
> Thanks to all that gave me suggestions where to find the Crossbill. Being Labor Day weekend, the campgrounds were filling up and I decided to look where fewer people were. I went up FR 570 past a Pine stand and parked. As soon as I got out of the truck I heard Crossbills. A female and male flew to a top of a Pine tree and I glassed them for about a minute. The call was definitely Cassia and I visually confirmed it. Within 3 to 4 minutes they had moved on and all was quiet, I guess right place at the right time.
> For all those hard-core birders out there, I have a question for you. I consider myself a visual birder and have only counted birds that I have been able to verify visually. On a few occasions I have spotted birds others have misse d because of my ability to observe abnormalities’ (I saw the Mexican Spotted Owl in Scheelite Canyon when two groups had missed it, on a log in the ravine next to the trail). I have struggled with whether or not I should count birds heard but not seen. I heard a Mexican Whip-poor-will in Medera Canyon, but did not see it nor was I going to go up a trail in the dark by myself. My question for you is, should a bird be counted on a life list if it is heard but not seen? And if so, to what limits should it count. If you hear an Owl a mile away do you count it, or should it be within a distance that you could visually I.D. it? Certain birds may be extremely hard to visually I.D., but easier with vocals.
>
>
> Thanks again,
> Brad Hardenburger
>
>

Thanks to all that gave me suggestions where to find the Crossbill.  Being Labor Day weekend, the campgrounds were filling up and I decided to look where fewer people were.  I went up FR 570 past a Pine stand and parked.  As soon as I got out of the truck I heard Crossbills.  A female and male flew to a top of a Pine tree and I glassed them for about a minute.  The call was definitely Cassia and I visually confirmed it.  Within 3 to 4 minutes they had moved on and all was quiet, I guess right place at the right time.For all those hard-core birders out there, I have a question for you.  I consider myself a visual birder and have only counted birds that I have been able to verify visually.  On a few occasions I have spotted birds others have missed because of my ability to observe abnormalities’ (I saw the Mexican Spotted Owl in Scheelite Canyon when two groups had missed it, on a log in the ravine next to the trail).  I have struggled with whether or not I should count birds heard but not seen.  I heard a Mexican Whip-poor-will in Medera Canyon, but did not see it nor was I going to go up a trail in the dark by myself.  My question for you is, should a bird be counted on a life list if it is heard but not seen?  And if so, to what limits should it count.  If you hear an Owl a mile away do you count it, or should it be within a distance that you could visually I.D. it?  Certain birds may be extremely hard to visually I.D., but easier with vocals.

Thanks again,Brad Hardenburger